8XA DEMO PLATE CELL
What was Stan trying to show with this demo unit?
I feel the need to set the record straight on this demo cell, after reading the post for the inductor topic. There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding of this unit out there.
First we need to put this cell in relation to the tube cell.
The tube cell was a mechanical unit by most sense. It uses an electric motor to turn a mechanical voltage generating alternator.
The 8XA was a means of turning that mechanical system into an all electrical system.
Ok so what we know about the 8XA system, is that we are locked into a frequency of 120hz. That is the primary frequency of this unit. Then we have a gate frequency that is used to turn on and off the primary frequency.
Now this gate frequency is used to give us those unipolar pulses to the cell. It does not make step charging pulses. Now in order to get those pulses, we need to keep the gating frequency below the primary frequency of 120hz. If we go faster than 120hz, we will not see those unipolar pulses. Also in order to even see the unipolar pulses, we must isolate our scopes from earth ground. This means an isolated scope or and isolated power transformer with internal grounds cut between the input power side and output power side of the transformer.
OK, so now we can get to the answer of the subject topic. What was the purpose of this demo cell.
There are two things that this cell was used to show.
Does anyone know what they are?
The first thing we see that is different than the tube cell is that the plates were adjustable. Why?
Most might think that it was used to adjust the cells capacitance. Wrong! It does do that, but it's not the answer. It was used to show how the spacing of the plates effects the gas output. That's all it was for. As we all know, as the plates are brought closer together, we get more gas production.
Now what was the primary reason for the 8XA demo cell?
It was used to prove that by restricting amps, you will get a rise in the voltage.
This demo cell is nothing more than an amp restricting
Now for the biggest mistake that I see everyone making about this setup.
THIS IS NOT A RESONATE SYSTEM!!!!!!
Everyone is getting this system confused with Stans other systems. You can not use this cell to find resonance. The resonance systems came much later. Stan never knew about resonance when building this cell. His only goal at the time was amp restriction. No where in the documents for this unit does it ever mention resonance.
So all the talk about matching choke coils to the capacitance of the cell doesn't apply here. Forget about it. Build the circuit and tune the gate below 120hz and it will work as advertised.
If you haven't seen my You tube video on this circuit, check it out. My You tube channel is dynodon64.
Also a lot of talk went into the chokes wire size and number of turns. It doesn't matter if it's 29ga or 30ga, 46 turns or 56 turns. They will all work.
When I worked with Dave on selling the buggy, there was a lot of 29ga wire there. And I even measured the wire gauge with micrometers. So my original post were correct. As for the number of turns on the choke coil for this circuit, it was a logical guess based on the wire size and bobbin size. I couldn't very well take the bobbin apart and unwind it, it just wouldn't have been right.
So that's my opinion of this unit base on everything I have read and seen first hand. Now I know some of you may disagree with me on some or most of this, and that's your right. I have been studying Stans work for a long time and feel I have a very good working knowledge of it.
Any comments about this is welcomed. I hope this
helps the newer researchers, and maybe a few of the older ones as well, get a better understanding of what this unit does.
Hope to be posting more in the near future
I do disagree with part of what you said. iwe all seen the tube cell working from the alternator set up.
there was also schematics showing the use of multiple tube sets in unisen with the plate cell. i believe the purpose of that schematic was showing how to find the resonance of that assembly.
just like tuning a radio, pick any channel to tune into to, when the capacitor and inductor are in tune with the frequency, then you get the highest Q factor which gives the strongest radio signal. this would be one form of resonance . the jhighest Q factor or resonance will out put the highest voltage.
that's what i see.
Thanks to everyone for the warm welcomes. I hope I can help out here with every ones
questions and problems, and get this thing working.
As for Max's comments about the plate cell being used with the tube cell in a document, I'm not sure I've seen that set up. But if that's the case, it's not the 8xa set up with the plate cell only, so it doesn't change my opinion on this set up. I still say it's NOT a resonant cell/setup.
In my video of this circuit, I just used my small tube cell to show the unipolar pulses as Stan shows in the documentation of the 8XA demo cell. They are exactly the same.
Now for Adys15 remarks. Your not going to be able to use the 8XA circuit to get any cell to resonate. If you are familiar with an SCR, once it's turned on by an input pulse, it stays on. It doesn't turn back off when the input pulse terminates. It will only shut off when the input voltage drops below the SCR activation point. This means that the voltage from the variac needs to drop off, then and only then will it turn off. The reason the SCR turns off now, is because of the 120hz unipolar pulses from the variac, drops to 0 volts between pulses. So when the gate pulse turns on the SCR, it stays on until the gate pulse goes to it's off time, then when the next 120hz pulse goes to 0 volts, the SCR can now turn off because there is no gate pulse on the input to keep it turned on. I hope this makes sense.
So if you try to tune the gate pulse frequency higher than 120hz, the SCR won't turn off, until both signals are in the off state. So you end up seeing all kinds of funny signals on a scope.
Also the plate cell only shows amp restriction at a given voltage. The voltage of the cell still matches the voltage from the veriac. It only restricts amps. I never said that the voltage will climb when restricting amps. It just restricts amps.
As for the tube cell output claims that Stan makes, they have been proven to be in error.
Hope this helps out with the understanding of this setup.
first of all, I want to say all opinions are greatly appreciated, and should be listened to.
what I see in my experiments are this......with the 8xa circuit, the 120 hz and the inductor are known parts of the formula. so replicate the inductor as close as possible, the 120 hz is fixed....so adjust the cell until the voltage raises.
resonance can mean many things. here it will be the LC circuit between the frequency, inductor, and cell.
many things resonate, but do not make hho. it is not a magic word....it is a too widely used word. I think
what I believe is it never made an eruption of hho that everyone wants to see. but as don is saying, it was a test circuit that led him to better things. but when tuned correctly, I think it sheds a lot of light on everything else.
I have seen around 2 times the voltage come out as went in. I have never seen a huge eruption of hho from it.
the more i work on the stuff, the higher i get the voltage, the more gas flows. but simply, i have not gotten a huge eruption yet. when i do, doubt they will see me at work ever again. LOL
you just move one tube in and out of the other. or and and subtract tube sets. move the plates...........this all increases or decreases the capacitance. thats the idea......if your frequency is fixed, at 120 hz.......you have to adjust the capacitence and or the inductance
here is what Don is talking about
see attached............it shows the 8xa circuit. the 9xb is the driver for the opto coupler.
you can plainly see the plate cell.
deliberately incorrectly shown in the picture
just remove one little thing-but of course can work as in the picture reverse the ground connection
those are symbols for a variable resistor
he used it
in the begining.
the tubes and plate cell wereused to tune in the circuit to match the 120 hz
the variable resistors sybols show a part of the tuning process. perhaps he ment to show varible inductors, hpwever, it is probibly ment as drawn
He used those variable resistors symbols, But in reality they represent the water gap since the water is the resistance and part of the circuit and can be varied by the gap between the plates or cells.
-----In that drawing, item 33 is a motor. Most likely used to change the plate gap.
The items numbered 50 are tube cells.
They are only three ways Stan used to increase or decrease the resistance across the water cell.... 1: either increase or decrease the water gap, or 2: increase or decrease the inductance of the neg. choke.
Or 3: a combination of both. As stated in one of his videos """"QUOTE"""""" " If you put a resistor across the cell you violate his patent." Like I said it is only a symbol of how to do it.
Did anyone measure the current at exiting THAT VARIABLE inductors
Yes I have, On my setup and I can control the amps down to or near zero amps using the water and the neg. inductor.
I have stated how to do this.
First you have to understand how Stan uses the water as part of the circuit.
Second you can't mix different setups that he used. Parallel vs. Serial
Cells in parallel, no matter how many cells you have in the circuit will not change the resistance between the gap. (It is a set resistance......)
On the other hand in a series cell setup the resistance is added from one cell to the other and the circuit see's it as one big water gap. (It is a variable resistance as you add more cells to the circuit it changes the resistance.....)
And I'm sure we all know how Inductors increase or decrease resistance.
Stan states high voltage while keeping the amps in the M/amps, let the voltage do the work. Your never going to get any production with high voltage and M/amps unless you reach ionization of the water.
Stan states it over and over HIGH VOLTAGE AND M/AMPS.
NOT HIGH VOLTAGE AND HIGH AMPS..........
Again your not going to get any production with high voltage and M/amps unless you reach the ionization level of the water. Once you do the water molecule just falls apart.
Then you just use the voltage control to increase or decrease the voltage to produce the gas on demand. How much gas you can produce depends on electronic components, transformer and cell.\
NOTE TO CHECK AND BE AWARE OF PERFORMANCE
YOU DO NOT SEE THE PROBLEM--IONIZATION is only possible when you have alkaline or acidic water
Ordinary water is PH BALANCE-WITH such water can not be achieved ionization
the diagram shown above.....
if you connect capacitors in parelel then you increase the capacitance
the schematic shows 120 hz from the wall.
there was a 9 tube set and a plate set. each tube set could be turned off one by one. and the plate cell was adjustable.
simply adding the tube sets up till he saw a reaction, then fine tuning it with the plate cell.
the 9 tube sets could be fine tuned via turning the inner rod up or down, the plate cell was used in conjunction with the tube set for fine tuning.
thus he could tune a large capacitance into the circuit of the inductor coupled with the 120 hz.
LC resonance found with capacitor and inductor and 120 hz would resonate electrically, just as any LC circuit.
120 hz needs a huge capacitance compared to the 5 kHz of the resonant cavity, which uses a smaller capacitance due to the series connection.
the resistor shown are no different then the resistive 430fr wire which is used in resistor winding. all wire wound resistors also carry an inductance factor.
the very part that meyer says any water and evidence says, Columbus ohio tap water is a far cry from distilled.
I see little evidence that there is some high voltage potential that rips the water apart. if so, simple pure water with a high voltage dc power source would do it.
I firmly believe there is more complex physics needed. and although complex, not un reachable.
all theory should be researched though
componate values of Meyers circuits suggest that the resonate cavity never hit over 600 volts
GOOD But it also depends who's watching
COMMON AC TRANSFORMER Is constantly on the resonance And you only need one diode
SO Microwave TRANSFORMER can prove your theory
transformer resonance is not the same as LC resonance.
but yes, one coil resonates with the other. the transformer is designed so at resonance you have the highest transfer of power.
60 to 50 hz for house hold transformers.
ferrite cores are used at higher frequency, generally.
resonance is a words used way to freely
If you have a parallel cell and you add cells you lower the resistance in the gap. Which lets you get less voltage into the cell.
if you have a series cell and you add cells you raise the resistance in the gap. Which let you get more voltage into the cell.
TRANSDUCER OR PRESSURE THING monitor the entire ELECTRONICS And THAT ELECTRONICS constantly working To maintain a constant pressure Due to the different engine operating regimes Constantly looking for the best resonance to maintain PRESSURE
PRESSURE REQUIREMENT high voltage Due to extreme resistance
Which also suggests that gas production is not large-
TO work around this issue IN THE WATER WE MUST HAVE SOME PH FACTOR + -
Resonance is easily attained ON 50HZ BUT ON 5KHZ isn't .WHY MUST BE 5KHZ This is due to OVERHEATING WATER AND USE OF HIGH VOLTAGE AND THAT current velocities determine the rights resonance WICH In this model is not the case THUS can not expect miracles in gas PRODUCTION (Meyer Say NO electrolyte ) Max you stated that "component values of Meyers circuits suggest that the resonate cavity never hit over 600 volts" I disagree, Stan states that the voltage of the Vic can reach as high as 20,000 volts and beyond. This is due to the interreaction of the cell and the positive choke. And on one system either the gas processor or the injection system "I will have to double check which one" the voltage can reach as high as 90,000 volts due to interreaction. I myself have reach several thousand volts using his same components.
honestly I think that was a little slide of hand on his part to divert the questioner.
the injector was a resonate cavity and it could easily have seen 60kv or more.
yes several kv is possible and I am not saying you did not. I am merely saying that the dielectric of the wire used will not allow much more. the design of the water vic coils do not allow for such high voltages.
the big bobbin is designed for much higher voltages, this is why Mitchel is using the big bobbin design. because he figured out that it will handle higher voltages. do to the partitions.
I once had a car coil glowing. the coil itself. LOL it did not live long enough for me to get the camera. I replaced the coil and watched as the plasma went into my figure. my figure was numb for a week
the reaction would have to be between the plates, and not in the coils, then such a voltage would no doubt start a glow plasma discharge. I very much would like to see that. a glowing gap between the plates
the gas processor I am working on has the plasma glow between the plates
this is why I think we need a proper lab. with proper measuring devices. accurate notations
I for one do not wish to die of a brain aneurism
below is 60kv or so and the led s. both are needed in the gas processer. which is a vic circuit. but not applicable to the water. perhaps if you achieved a huge eruption of gas, then the ionanation field between the plates would exceed this high voltage. but it could not be in the wires of the vic transformer, as it is designed. the big bobbin could handle 60kv
Stan refers to the choke as a resonant choke. That doesn't make this cell a resonant cell. That's what the chokes were called by the electronics of the day. I still have not seen Stan refer to any of his earlier cells as a resonant system. As well as calling it such in any of his writings. If anyone can show me this, I will then re-access my opinion.
We know that in order to tune into resonance, we need to have the ability to adjust one of the following. Primary frequency, inductance or capacitance.
On the 8XA circuit, we have a fixed primary frequency of 120hz, Correct? The Gate frequency is adjustable, but is not used to tune into L/C resonance.
The inductance is also fixed, correct? (It's meant to be, because it was in a bolted down box)
So the only one of the three tuning options we have available to us is the capacitance, correct?
We can adjust the gap to vari the capacitance. Right?
So with a fixed frequency, fixed inductance, do you believe that with the adjustable plates, we can tune into resonance with that cell? I don't !
With a fixed inductance and frequency of only 120hz, we would then need to tune the capacitance to find resonance. Will this cell resonate?
He did mention somewhere that the adjustable plates were used to show the difference in gas production as they were varied.
So yes you can say that I don't believe that THIS cell is capable of tuning into resonance and work as such.
But I do believe that we can tune into resonance with the VIC and the resonance cavity.
I'm not arguing with anyone here, just stating my opinion on this cell, and asking for evidence that can prove to me that Stan used this cell to tune into resonance.
We don't have any videos of Stan doing this. Most people never even knew about this cell until I posted the videos on you tube of it working. It would have been nice
to have seen Stan operating this cell.
But we have seen Stan operate the tube cell, and what does he do? He turns it on and turns the variac up to 5 volts. That's it. No tuning of the frequency, or turning on or off any of the tube sets to search for resonance.
Just my thoughts of these two cells.
look at the alternator behind the reporter. the reason it is on a electric motor, is so he could set the rpm to a specific frequency(rpm of a generator makes a sine wave to match the 360 degree spin and speed) once he set that speed, he then tuned the tube sets to match. those tubes that you took pictures of were tuned to match that frequency. those slots at the top were there to tune the inner tube up and down. the schematics in the patents show different layouts of the alternaters. obviously he was working on everything, and all the basic same idea. the one schematic noted earlier....clearly shows tube sets that could be turned on or off, and the plate cell was used to hit resonance based on that sine wave from the alternator. the plates spreading apart would be different capacitance based on changing the thickness of the dielectric.
its all based on the same idea....but obviously stan advanced with every design.
the resonate cavity in the delron is similar in concept, but instead of using a rotary generator, he attempted a more solid state device.
the injectors are a much different device, but still based on what he learned from the 8xa circuit. the 8xa circuit is fixed in frequency, the gate controls the actual amp flow. the inductance was set by the number of wire turns and the perm of the core, and the gap of the core. so finally the number of tubes and spread of the adjustable plates tuned into resonance. when tuned to resonance the amp draw goes down and the voltage goes up. this is how a radio functions. all tuners are based on moving a capacitor or inductor.....when resonance is found, the radio signal is heard. the signal is clearest and loudest at the tuned in frequency.
.I see a lot of people here and elsewhere, that start to get these systems mixed up with each other.
The demo tube cell was only used with the alternator. The plate cell was only used with the 8XA circuit. There's no proof that he used any of them with anything else.
the resonance with the coils is just the start of it. everyone thinks that will make huge amounts of gas.........its simply not the finished work. there is more to it. thats why no one has done it. it is more complex then that. but everyone has to understand the tuning process and then move on from that. they must get some bubbles and have the voltage raise while making bubbles first, then we have a new path in front of us. and physics will apply. always
Max, RL resonance is RL resonance. It's all the same. If you have an inductor and capacitor in series, you will get RL resonance at the right frequency. With the correct values to enter into the calculator, you will get the right answers out. We also need to consider the capacitance and inductance that exist in the coils themselves.
I have watched most of your videos already, and I see where your coming from. I tested Stans cells personally, and seen how they worked as well.
I have been studying Stans work for about 8 years now. I have made and tested a lot of these systems myself. I have a very good understanding of what Stan was saying and doing. My own testing has shown his explanations to be accurate. He was telling the truth on what the results will be.
I'm not into making videos to show everyone what it is I have done. I am more interested in the test, and results. I also don't work on his later projects, like electron extracting, EPG, and so forth, because until we can get to the high voltage resonance he talks about, none of the other things will ever work. I feel that once we find gas producing resonance, than the rest of his work will also work as he describes. Then we can work on those systems.
As of right now, NO ONE has hit on the high gas producing resonance Stan talks about yet. His states that resonance will convert 5 gallons of water per hour per tube set.
No One has come even close to that yet. Yes I see people making gas with higher voltages, but not the kv's that we need. Still need to keep at it.
8xA is demo for 1 phase of alternator.
I think 8xA choke is bifillar but is different length.When i try this, i hear the work in bobin.
When i make equal length in some condition i hear the work in variac.I think this is verry important.
For those who want to test a variable plate cell, I made one. http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1041707
But there is a problem with this variable plate cell. The iron guide rods are not suitable for this application.
Water become hot. I think that the iron guide are too close to the plates. It might cause a sort of dead short I guess.
I think I know now why Stanley used acrylique rods. May be I can insulate the rods with a PTFE tube. I will try this..
the flux field in the water will make anything metal do that.
the water will get hot, i think when the process is working correctly, it will not
I have tried to use fiber glass rods... but the installation was too flexible, and it blocked the sliding --> Failed
I have tried to coat the iron rod with heat shrink tubing. Fit nicely, but it does not slide enough --> Failed
I understand the interest there is to have neutral plates in a dry cell, but I think that what we are looking for in this setting is the exact opposit. Having the highest voltage potential between plates without any amp flowing.
But it seems that it is not so easy as that... it seems that increasing the amount of volt is not enought until the temperture is not stable.
An increasing termperature means an amp leakage. (joules effect P=RI². It might be very interresting to use a thermal camera to see where come from the heat.
I have seen something else interesting.
An increasing termperature means an amp leakage. (joules effect P=RI² Or is it possible that "floating" electrons in the water bath react with some metal parts of the cell (sliding rods if not well insulated, or the big threaded rod) to produce a joule effect ?
I have to make a short video about this, but when I hook a small neon bulb ( One side on the isolated ground) and I move one end of the wire at different locations to the surface of the water , the bulb light more or less in function of its position. Shine less away from the plates, shine more just above the plates. I think that I'm catching some electrons like this...
Here is the video : https://youtu.be/1xMAB2E1_yk
the largest problem with creating HHO gas is the current, that must be restricted, if you have read any of his patents, this is a main point. because, with high current will cause the water to heat up, and as the water heats the current will increase, causing even hotter water until it boils.
the process leaves electron in the water. the H+ and O- will be there and free elecrons. the free electron would cause a "ground". stan had his light connect on the pulse off time
the key to the phenomenon is not in the circuit boards,,
indeed, i see the input phasor as uni',
(specific wave production are afterthought of phenomenon)..
the water-Cap is bi',,
as are the chokes/inductor coils(
they are mountains of electrons= flow down both sides,
if they are left to stand/unsaturate alone),and the 50% cycle allows just that.
.imagine pushing positive on each side of Cap(through inductor on each side),
alternating tug-of-war= the "electron bounce phenomenon",,
no ground=electrons in limbo.."bottle-necked"into the cap from both sides evenly.
.. look only at the set-up after the transformer&diode,
and cold electricity,,, LC resonance.. thats the magic-
Stan took right out of tesla's book, a reality long before circuit-boards.
THEN look back and realize this chicken can come from any egg
just like the pyramids were built from the top down,,,
magnetism will define the base..
(universe+nature does it that way== Physical comes LAST)
SO to add more explanation= there is a ground/SINK for all the electrons
(they need a direction), and that is simply stabilizing the ions for a gas form.
i should add(schauberger physics)the vacuum dynamic of electron flow(bottle-neck-vortex="wave") once the 'snow-ball' gets rolling>> pulling in more>(hence the need for gas-processor=ions)>hence why the voltage will get vacuumed to infinity,,,"as components allow"==Stan says!
fire consumes oxygen right?= vacuum..exo/enthalpy blah-blah,, .
BUT, Stan+steve were aware of the laws based on 'current' measurements -literally,,, yet the word "phenomenon" is used by Stan,,(Definition=?no reference for measure?),,
(4:04min to 4:37min)
THERE IT IS!(9:08min) everything that became apparent= electrons DO indeed 'SINK' out of VIC circuit path via'-water Cap(and would stabilize gas burned= to water again).
...BUT the Gas Processor ABSORBS electrons,, allowing the gas ions to remain in a 'high(ion)state'= to burn WITHOUT water forming! (the gas processor(laser) action reminds me of how lightning absorbs electrons out of surounding air- leaving that ozone(ionizer) smell=hint-hint slaps me in the face!)
!!! (10:37min(Stans words)=" fractureing process simply occurs by preventing formation of the water molecule during THERMAL GAS IGNITION of the ionized gases,,causeing avalanche effect""
,,, WELL 'vacuum effect' is still a better term,,,BECAUSE 'Ignition' IS requisite for process,,=the LAST thing to happen causes the PRE/Initial action(the spirit guides were right).